EP.5: How to stay alive as a Ukrainian soldier with Alex Gorgan

00:00:00: War cannot cancel your life and probably the biggest goal of the enemy is to destroy your dreams so what you have to do is protect your dreams.

00:00:17: Welcome to the podcast, «Yak Ty? Ukraine Live». «Yak Ty» means in Ukrainian «How are you?». I'm your host, Luzia Tschirky, a former correspondent, now a book author and a freelancer. This is a podcast with a guest live from Ukraine. The goal of this podcast is to give people in Ukraine the opportunity to talk about their experience during Russia's war against the country. I am more than delighted to welcome today's guest on the podcast, Alex Gorgan.

00:00:47: Thank you for inviting me to your program.

00:00:51: Alex Gorgan is a captain officer of the Joint Tactical Group «Pegasus» in the Ukrainian Army. Alex joined the Ukrainian Army as a volunteer in the very beginning of Russia's full-scale invasion of the country. Before joining the Ukrainian army Alex was a top manager in a private real estate developer company. Alex Gorgan is joining us currently from Kyiv. He is in the capital city for the very first time as he got a leave this week and he joined his family. Alex Gorgan, welcome to the podcast. I always start this podcast with the question: «Yak ty?» «How are you?» «Yak ty saras?» «How are you right now?»

00:01:27: For normal people in a peaceful country when you're asking somebody how are you, it's just like usual greeting. But in Ukraine now, when someone is asking you: «How are you?» You start to think how to give an answer because it's not easy. It's a difficult question how are you now in Ukraine. You cannot say: «I'm fine.» Because you know that during the night there was shelling and some kids now are dead, innocent kids who were just killed in their beds. So you cannot tell «I'm fine» when you know about it. But in the same time, you still have hope and you are fighting and you rely on some kind of miracle. Because of the situation in the war zone. And that's why I mostly give an answer, when someone asking me: «How are you?», I'm saying: «It's a different way.» «Different», I say. Different, it just means that from one side I'm really sad, I'm quite depressed. But on the other side I'm still very excited because we're still fighting. We are not giving up. We are not even having the idea to give up. So that's why we are still really, really, really charged to fight to liberate our country. So it's not a simple answer to the question: «How are you?»

00:03:13: You joined the army in the very beginning of the full-scale invasion. What made you join the Ukrainian army?

00:03:22: I will tell you, the thing is that... Well, I've got three kids and by legislation I have a right to not go to army. But I decided to go because the invasion was so brutal, the invasion was so arrogant that I felt it's just like some criminals and rapist came to my house and tried to kill my kids and to rape my wife. So for me it was impossible to avoid and from the first day I just came to the recruiting center, stood in line and from the first day I was appointed as a deputy of commander of infantry company. Even without any military experience at all. I'm not military person. Not at all. I'm by my nature by my thoughts by my life position. I am totally peaceful guy for 100 % and for me take weapons and kill enemies is just like some kind of necessity and I cannot avoid this necessity. So it's just like normal behavior of every human being who is trying to protect home. And that's why I'm in a...

00:04:56: You joined the army without having any military background, you have not served in the Ukrainian army before. What were your thoughts back then of how long you're going to serve, what did you expect?

00:05:09: Well, I thought that I cannot serve really long, not because I thought that war will be short, I thought that I will be killed in the first few days. So I just said goodbye to all my friends. I did not tell goodbye to my wife and kids. Because, it's kind of a sin, but I told them that they have to stay in a safe place in Western Ukraine, but I needed to be in Kyiv because I needed to take some cash from the bank. And I just went to a recruiting center, took a rifle and went to the frontline. And every day I made a call to my wife. Of course, I just feel really guilty. And I say, well, honey, you know, the situation with the bank is not so good and there were explosion around us, shattering and actually it lasts almost two weeks. On the 6th of March, it is the birthday of my daughter and I just felt that I cannot lie anymore and I made a little video. It was just before a big combat mission and I thought that probably I will not be back. And I made this footage and I was greeting my daughter to her birthday and I just make kind of... It was my coming out. It was kind of coming out and I say, okay, I am in army now. I am in military and these are my mates and there were a few guys around me and I said: "We are going to a battle today." And I addressed everything to my daughter. How I love, how I really really love her and I am making everything for her, for Ukraine. It was maybe quite, quite... I don't know. For now it seems like quite artistic but for those period of time it was a moment of truth in my life I just said goodbye to my family in this video. But thanks to God, I still alive, even now. So that's why the answer on your question, I thought that my service will be not so long.

07:45:22: I have a follow up question on what you just told us. What you think were the reasons you did not share with your wife that you would like to join the army, that you would like to volunteer?

07:57:25: Well, I'm sure for 100 % that she would not let me go. No, for 100%. She loved me so much and I loved her so much that it's just impossible. I think, I'm sure for 100%, she would take a knife and just said that I can kill myself or make something more even serious. And she would have taken a promise from me that I will not go or something like that. But for sure there was no other way than just like to lie. No other way. I'm not lying to my wife, it's just like first and last my big lie in my life in our relationship so...

00:08:51: As far as I understand the Ukrainian laws, as a father of three kids, you could legally cross the border, so you could legally leave Ukraine for a western country, like for example Switzerland. Why did you decide not to leave, but to stay?

00:09:10: Because this is my motherland. cannot leave my mother Ukraine. This is my mother. This land gave me life, gave me everything, gave me so much joy, much happiness. I met my wife here in Ukraine I've got kids Since my childhood I was taught to love my country, to defend my country. So my country gave me so much that this day is my time to give it back. So that's why I cannot go to Switzerland or any other country. Well, and I was invited from the first day. I've got a lot of friends all over the world and they just asked me go to Australia, Norway, UK, United States, other countries. And I rejected because for me it's a kind of shame that... I can just leave my country. Why? Because the enemy... We need to protect our country. We need to defend it, because if every kind person will let to do evil what they want to do, the evil will prevail in the world. So, someone... has to make some resistance. You cannot let the evil to develop any plans so easily. Of course, the cost of this resistance can be really, really high, in the matter of the global scale, you need to protect good and justice, sometimes even by the cost of your life. Because it's not just for you, it's not just for Ukrainians, it's for all good people in the world and next generations.

11:14:35: While we are talking to each other, it just was in the news today that, you know, talking on a global level now, because you're speaking of a global level and the good and the evil. Today came the news that Donald Trump is most probably becoming the next president of the United States. So he got re-elected. And he, during his campaign, he said once that he's going to make a deal with Vladimir Putin within 24 hours for peace with Ukraine. What is your point of view on this statement? Are you expecting that there is going to be peace very soon?

11:40:11: No, no, I respect and I respect position of the American people and their choice and If and I'm sure that Donald Trump will be the next President of United States, so I really respected because it was the result of a free election. I think I'm sure for 100 % that Mr. Trump will be really angry by the position of Putin, because Putin will ignore any proposal from Trump. And his attitude that Donald Trump's position will be changed completely, for 100%. Because he still thinks there is just a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, it's not. It's a global conflict, and Ukraine is just kind of pre-look. And we know exactly who is behind the curtain and we know the role of China. We know the role of different other parties in all this huge scenario. And for Trump, it will be not easy just to stop because you cannot just stop Putin. Putin doesn't want to take just Donbass and Crimea. Putin needs to destroy. He wants to vanish out all Ukraine because Ukraine is this really huge risk for Russia big danger because we are kind of model of the free society and this is the big the biggest threat to the Russia where people just like slaves just like slaves. They are living like in in a jail there. They are just like hostages of one sick man. Of course, I can tell that Russian society unfortunately supports Putin and really wants to see Ukraine destroyed as well. But they are so brainless, are so hypnotized, they are just like zombies.

13:35:39: Speaking about Ukrainian society, there were members of the Ukrainian army who said publicly that everyone in Ukraine should get ready at some point to serve in the Ukrainian army. That at some point it will be everybody's turn to serve in the Ukrainian army. You yourself as a soldier of the Ukrainian army, are you expecting the same? Are you expecting that everyone in Ukraine at a certain point will serve in the army?

14:21:43: No, I don't expect like this and I actually don't want it to be like this because... Well, I really want and it is my pure wish for those men who don't want to serve, do not serve. Of course, it's really, really big kind of lack of the people now in Ukrainian army. We are going out of people and this is the biggest problem now for Ukraine because we can build new tanks, can receive as an aid from the United States, from Europe, from UN, from other countries, some military equipment, gears, vehicles, but at the same time we are going out of people. But I cannot have the position that if someone does not want to fight, this man or woman, has to be just like forced to do it. Because for example in my unit fortunately all people they were volunteers and their motivation is extremely high. Well, as you told to your listeners, it is the first time for me on vacation since the beginning of the war. And actually, I was forced to go on vacation. I did not want to do it.

16:01:10: Why?

16:03:15: Because the unity of my unit, it's so high. And my commander just called me and said: «Alex, you can be addicted to war, you can be seriously damaged in a mental sense. You need to go to your family, to your father, to your friends for a while because you are going too far.» And he just kicked me off from my unit for two weeks. This kind of describes you the level of motivation of people in my unit and it's just like the same with everyone. And I remember it has happened sometimes that if someone is going on a vacation, the biggest worry guys are sharing: "Please, do not go to some serious combat mission without me! They are asking: "Please wait for me, wait for me, because I need to cover you up. You can be damaged. You can be killed without me!" Something like this. So it's really, really funny, but it shows that if a person is motivated to fight, it's really good. And hopefully you've got no one who was forced to go to the army. And it will be a disaster if someone will be sent to us who was taken somewhere on the streets, taken on a bus, to the recruiting center and just like was forced to go and fight. Because we don't need people who don't want to fight, who are not ready to die for Ukraine, for freedom, for justice.

17:54:31: Can you now relax a little bit at home?

17:58:44: Yes, I'm really thankful to... Well, I'll tell you, it's also important. Even during the war, I still have session with a psychoanalytic, the guy who gives me sessions as a therapist. Because otherwise it will be really hard to accept civilian reality and I don't feel any problem with adaptation to the civil life at all. I went to the cinema, I saw incredible movie "Wild Robot" and some other... And I still, I am not afraid of loud noises, I love to see people on the streets. I'm not jealous and I do not hate them because they are not fighting somewhere in the trenches. Just because I've got really strong psychological support from an expert, from a specialist. And it's really important to find opportunities to get it. And I've got two sessions per week. It is a lot and in any situation even if I've got a little pause in my military operation I call to my therapist and I am speaking with him.

19:39:30: So you're out there in the trenches and you're calling your therapist?

19:43:03: Yes, yes! And I can tell you the war is a huge challenge. But in the beginning I decided, okay, I will still continue work with my therapist. I continue to make for myself healthy food because I am a vegetarian. You can just imagine how to be a vegetarian in the army. So I cook for myself for two and a half years in the trenches because it's a problem to be a vegetarian in the Ukrainian army. I think not just the in the Ukrainian army, in any army. And I still keep some special habits. And I show them as an example, to other guys, that even if you are in trenches it don't mean that your life is ended and I can tell you a little funny story because I'm not I'm quite mature guy yesterday was my birthday and I am 49.

20:54:19: Congratulations to your birthday.

20:58:01: Thank you. Yeah, so and a lot of guys around me, are much younger than me and I say, okay guys, sometimes we've got two or three days in a mode we call it radio silence when we cannot even switch on telephone or even switch off Bluetooth devices like smartwatches.

21:20:35: Because it's too dangerous?

21:22:30: It's too dangerous or some special operation that you cannot disclose yourself where you are. It was November in 2022. And I was in the trenches in the mud. And I started, we decided that I need to study something completely new, brand new, some new skills. And I choose on Coursera a course in a Berkeley musical college that I will study music engineering on how to write electronic music. And it's enough to have just a smartphone, because every smartphone, especially if you've got iPhone, there is a GarageBand application. So I spent more than one month and I completely finished the course. I passed all exams in the Berkeley Musical College and I got a certificate as an engineer of the electronic music. And I just showed for all guys that trenches are not a cage. Cage can be just in your mind. And nothing can stop you from your inspiration, your willing to develop yourself, to be better, to obtain new skills, to reach new goals. And actually despite, yes, I still continue my communication with the therapist, I still cook for myself nice healthy food, I do my sport exercises, I still read nice literature because war cannot cancel your life and probably the biggest goal of the enemy is to destroy your dreams so what you have to do is protect your dreams. [00:23:15]: Can you describe what you're doing in your position as a captain officer of the Joint Tactical Group Pegasus? So what a day in the trenches looks like, if there is such as a standard day.

23:29:12: I cannot describe everything in details because if I will tell what I do, the enemy will know the profile of my units and I cannot make it because it's military secret. But I can tell you that there is no ordinary day, just like day by day in the trenches, because we are going to trenches just in the moment when we make something special. what I can tell you, I'm a part of maneuverable group. We are not staying on the one position more than one day. So it does mean that every new morning I will wake up in a totally new place. And probably the most difficult issue in the war for me was to be used to the thing that when I wake up, literally I don't know where am I. And it's really, really hard. Because when you wake up, you're just trying to remember where you are. And it's really hard to remember where you are and how it's happened that you are here. First half of year, it was really scary for me because every time I thought that I'm somewhere in hospital, that I was wounded and I just like after operation something like this. But now when I'm waking up I'm not trying to open my eyes immediately. I'm trying to lay down a little bit, trying to just like remember to recollect: "Where am I? What happened yesterday? How I hear where am I? So it's just like kind of little quest for myself every every time when I'm waking up: Where am I? Because I even cannot say every morning because I've got no morning in my life anymore. I've got no night in my life anymore. I'm sleeping when it's just like possible to sleep because we're working at night, we're working at day. We are not working by some schedule because we sometimes will react on the offensive operation of enemies. Sometimes we plan and make all operations. So there is no day and night in my life anymore. It's just like total mess. For me it's really important to track how many hours per some period I sleep. So that's the only kind of way to keep myself in more or less proper shape, physical shape. So what I can tell to your listeners, we are traveling all the time along the front line all the time. And that's really hard because you all time you got no no place, no bed, no corner where you can put your luggage to post your picture of family on a wall or somewhere. You are just like all time travelers. That's that's the kind of our profile we are working all the time in movement because we are involved in the situation when there is some danger of the breakthrough on the frontline or when we see the weak spot of the enemy's defense line, we are going there and make some tangible work to the enemies.

26:55:37: At the current moment, during the last month for example, looking at the map of the occupied territories, the Russian army gained as much territory as it did not since more than two years. How are you personally dealing with this development of things at the frontline? How is that for you personally as a soldier of the Ukrainian army?

27:24:45: Well... Of course I'm really sorry that we are losing territory, but because for me its territory is not just like square, it's villages and cities and of course for me it's really hard to imagine when we will get it back. Unfortunately. At the same time for me it's more important to know how many orcs we killed when they were trying to take this territory. If we killed a lot of them, I think it's okay, because we changed this territory for few thousand lives of these enemies. But for me it's also important to know about our casualties. Because for me it's the number one priority of any kind of index to know how many Ukrainian soldiers were killed or wounded in this area. I know exactly that we can take territory back, but unfortunately we will never give lives to those heroes who sacrificed their lives to protect us.

28:47:14: A short explanation for our listeners. You just mentioned the word "orc" which is a term from Lord of the Rings this saga written by the author Tolkien. "Orcs" are a phantasy figure in this saga. "Orcs" were former elves that were tortured and became monsters so called "orcs". In Ukraine many people refer with the term "orcs" to soldiers of the Russian army. Can you explain to the listeners why you're using this word? Because I'm quite sure that most of them have not heard this word before in this context outside of the book of Tolkien.

29:26:21: Well, we usually, actually it's our normal notion, we're not saying Russians, mostly we say Orcs, my units as well, because I don't know, it's just like a habit. And a lot of other people call them Orcs as well. For me personally, I think the situation in Ukraine is quite similar to those situations which are described in the "Fellowship of the Ring" in the Tolkien book. Because Ukrainians, they are really like hobbits. We are really a peaceful nation. We really like to eat tasty, to have fun, to get some gathering, to go from one house to another to celebrate some holidays and birthdays. We are a peaceful nation. But I don't know why destiny chose us to be on the peak of this global conflict. And Ukraine is battlefield of the... actually like the third world war, but it's just like a hybrid world war, hidden. And unfortunately, all these forces of evil are against Ukraine. Because it's not just Russian, there is a lot of elements of other kind, because we are suffering every day and night from the Iranian drones, Shahed. Well, almost all shells now, they are from North Korea. Well, Iran, North Korea, China, they are supporting Russia, not just like a little. No, they provide almost all weapons to Russia. And now North Korea is providing people as well. So it's just like a coalition, is just like the arc of evil. And orcs is a normal notion to describe this situation.

31:47:39: You said in the very first beginning that you were expecting that you would die very soon, as you had no experience in the army before, you had no military background yourself. What would you say: How did you survive? How did you manage to survive?

32:05:29: Well, it's just a miracle. Just pure miracle. Actually, I am a life evidence that the miracle exists. Because I've been in such a... In such a... Bad situation. No chance to survive. But I am alive. It's just... I am a Christian. Maybe a lot of your listeners they are kind of don't believe in God and it's okay I respect it I respect it. But I'm sure if you will be on my place you will believe in God after this. Because I, I stayed without any wound in a situation where there was no chance to survive at all. I'm just a lucky guy. I'm really a lucky guy. All my life I was so lucky. I met my wife on the street and I fell in love since first sight and she as well. Can you imagine? I just met her and on my third date I made the proposal to marry me and I was waiting this third date just because it was Valentine's. I was ready to make my proposal from the first date. We married and exactly after nine month after our wedding, my wife gave me as a best gift in my life, my son. My son was born just after nine months after the wedding. So my life before the war was just like like a dream. Like a story, like a fairy tale and unfortunately war changed everything. But even during the war I cannot say that my life is really really kind of dark. No, I've got new friends. I met such nice people, incredible people. I have a feeling of a very deep sense now, which was not the case for me before the war. And actually, I still love my life.

34:40:20: When you compare yourself to other people, people you might knew from your job as a as a manager in a very high position, people who did not join the army. People who maybe decided to leave Ukraine and now are abroad. Would you say there's a difference between you and them, those who had not made the same experience as you?

35:05:49: Of course there is a huge difference. Well, if someone went from Ukraine to another country and is staying somewhere in the Netherlands, Germany or Spain and living there, working and helping Ukraine, helping army in some way, I understand, accept and respect these people. And I'm really sorry about them, that they are not in Ukraine. And I'm really sorry about them because I know sometimes that they are suffering from the feeling of shame that they are not in Ukraine. I'm sure they are in a more painful situation than I am. My life is easier even under the shelling in the trenches. My life is easier in a sense of a dialogue with the conscience. And I'm really sorry about these people. I'm really sorry. But there are some people who went from Ukraine to other countries and they are making really wicked loud parties. They are buying expensive stuff. They are spending money in fancy restaurants. They are showing off. I do not accept these people. These people are even worse than enemies because they ruin our unity and the feeling that we have to stand in this fight as one. So that's that's kind of my feeling and actually and there is a big difference between those who who were forced to go out of Ukraine but still are with Ukraine, still believe in Ukraine and still helping to Ukraine and our army. And those people who not just went from Ukraine, they act really badly and they disgraced Ukrainians and showed really bad example to others.

37:38:02: What do you think, besides more people voluntarily showing up for joining the army, what else should be done, could be done, that the position of the soldiers within the Ukrainian army would be better?

37:45:39: Well, for the last year, some kind of revolution in our army started because there are more and more robots coming. So there is hope that we will not need so many people if everything with a new innovative weapon will be like this. Because we've got a lot of UAV drones. But now, more and more land robots are coming. So actually if the partner state will support innovative research and development which is really really kind of big in Ukraine now and we will have more land robots there will not be such a crucial need in people. And actually it's also very good stuff because instead of taking people from the street it's easier to produce land robots like a little tank with an assault machine rifle with nice optics with a great system of radio control. And if we will develop an autonomous version for controlling, it will be the great. And it's not some kind of phantasy. You will be amazed that a few huge military operations for last month were conducted just with robots and it's incredible and actually it will bring some kind of equality between us and Russia. Because Russia got a lot of people but if we will accelerate development of the new models of robots, not just FPV drones, but robots which can drive on land so I think it will be not such a big a problem that we are going out of people. Because I believe we don't need to take people from the streets we need to keep some Ukrainians alive because this war will have no sense if all Ukrainians will be killed on the front.

40:19:20: How are you personally dealing with people you knew, I assume you knew people, who died during this war, who were killed. How are you personally dealing with witnessing so much loss?

40:33:45: This is my biggest problem. I'm really a very empathic person. I'm an extrovert and I am really, really easily falling in love with some people. And I changed units a lot since the beginning of the war and I have created some huge network and I made a lot of friends during the war. And when in some group chat there are news that someone was killed, for me it's a tragedy all the time. All the time. And actually 90 % of time when I'm talking with the therapist it's about my dead friends. That's for me a big problem. I cannot let a person go. I still keep it because for me people the biggest thing. I lost my mother just before war. And for me this is a huge huge tragedy because I had so many plans and ideas for my mother and I just was out of time and now I'm so sorry because all my plans are totally useless. So the same thoughts I have about my killed friends. So that's that's really, really hard. I have no recipe how to live with this because I'm really suffering.

42:38:31: Thank you very much for sharing this so openly with us. Alex, I really appreciate that you're so openly talking about all these very difficult things and the situations you are faced with, absolutely inhuman situation you're faced with. How are you personally able to plan, you know, into the future? Are you thinking about what might be in two years or in three years? Or are you trying not even to think about planning your future.

43:11:31: Now I'm planning my future because there is a great book. Actually, before war, I was not just a manager in a huge developing company in real estate. At the same time, I was the owner of a little law company. And we provided support for IT companies. And it happened that the system of the development of products we used is called "Scrum". This is a method how to develop a product and it is described really nice in a book and in this book there is a notion about one American general he was imprisoned in Vietnam during the Vietnam war and he told to his buddies: "Guys don't mix two different notions! You cannot stay without hope. You cannot live without belief that everything will be good on one side. But on the other side you have to face brutal effects of reality. And it's really difficult to combine these two sides: To keep hope, but at the same time to accept reality. So I've got the same situation and actually I accept reality, I cannot plan my life and think that the war will be end in one year, two or three. Because I know that it's really not. It's just beginning. But what really keeps me alive, okay I will share with you some secret, because I did not tell anyone this. I'm writing a book for my daughter and I am just writing because I am afraid that I can be killed and she will never know how I loved her so that's why I'm writing a book, just like a big, big book, it's not just like a little for kids, it's a huge one. I spent almost two years for now for writing this book and it's for me is really kind of a strong habit to spend at at least 30 minutes every day to make it. So this keeps me alive. That's my plan. That's what keeps me going on. And I've got a lot of other plans as well. This is the huge challenge, how to stay alive under these circumstances.

46:35:33: Alex Gorgan, thank you so much for joining us on "Yak ty? Ukraine Live" and for sharing with us what you're going through and showing us the amazing strength you have and the example you are for everyone who listened to this podcast, I'm sure. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Luzia Tschirky, I'm your host and you're listening to "Yak ty? Ukraine Live".