EP.3: Missiles from my father’s homeland with Iryna Kyporenko

When you're at home you have these fake feelings that you control something. We have missiles from Crimea, it's Iskander missile and it's quite quick. So after an alarm usually we have three minutes or four and then you can hear the explosion. it's actually you don't have time to hide.

Welcome to the podcast Yak Ty? Yak ty? means in Ukrainian, how are you? I am your host, Luzia Tschirky, a former correspondent reporting from Ukraine, now a book author and a freelancer. This is a podcast with a guest, live from Ukraine. My guest today is Iryna Kiporenko. Iryna is a journalist and a film program manager at the Ukrainian Institute in Kyiv in Ukraine. Irina is talking to us today from Odesa, the city where we got to know each other in 2018. The focus of today's episode is the work of Irina as a journalist and film programmer and her personal experience during Russia's war against Ukraine. Hi Iryna!

Hello! Nice to hear you and meet you finally again.

Yeah, nice to meet you too. Thank you so much for taking your time today. I really appreciate that. I would like to start podcast with a question. How are you right now in this moment?

It's always difficult to answer this question. And after around three years of invasion, think many people start hate this question because it's... Generally, you want to be polite and international, you need to say, okay, I'm fine, and how are you? But as we say about Yak-Ty in Ukrainian, means really how are you? It means how are you doing, how is everything, how you feel yourself today, or how you spent your night, and if it was some air alarms or something like that. I prefer to say fine or I prefer to say stable. Yeah, it's short and it's something between I'm fine, how are you and between a bit deeper explanation really how I am these days. Yeah, so I'm in Odesa. We still have power cuts. It's back after the huge power cuts in July, I guess, when it was around 40 degrees and you cannot use your air condition. was a really interesting situation how to create some new things that you can use as a cooler for yourself. Now weather is not so hot, but there's power cuts back. But this time I'm more prepared and yeah so I already can manage my working schedule, life schedule, how to live with it. So can you realize that the answer is really long and we can talk about like hours and hours and it won't be one clear answer.

You just said that people hate this question. Have you heard that from other people in Ukraine that they don't like to answer the question, how are you? Or how do know that people hate this question? How are you?

Yes, yes, of course I heard it from my friends. At the beginning of invasion, I got so many questions from my foreign colleagues and friends. They called me, they wrote to me and asked how I am, how we are. In the beginning it was quite difficult to explain everything. But after we realized that we need to find these words to explain our foreign friends and colleagues. We need to find these words. We need to find some links how better explain our situation. So we cannot hide. We cannot say just fine because actually it's not fine. You cannot be fine in this crazy war state reality. Yeah, I spoke with my friends and Ukrainians that they, I cannot say hate, but they avoid this question because it's always will follow with a really long, long conversation about if you stay or you move abroad, if you or you want to join the army or about your friends who joined the army. It's usually it's very deep and long conversation after this question. So it's better to be more direct if you want to know something as example, yeah, are you staying or are you leaving or yeah, because Yak ty? it's already as a symbol, of course, of support. But also it's a starting point for a long deep conversation. And if you're not ready for it, it's better not to ask it because not so many people are for this conversation or not so many people want to share this experience and everything that they have in their minds and in their lives.

You are talking to us from Odesa. How safe do you feel in the city in these days?

It's interesting, but I feel more, I feel safer in Odesa but I feel not so safe when I'm abroad or somewhere else. Because when you're at home you have these fake feelings that you control something, that you can hide, that you can ask your mom and relatives go to the shelter. It's a really fake feeling. And of course if you check the news or you follow the news of the last months. We have missiles from Crimea. It's Iskander missile and it's quite quick. So after an alarm, usually we have three minutes or four and then you can hear the explosion. it's actually you don't have time to hide. Yeah. So in this case, what is the plan? To be nervous or just to live with this reality, try to live and realize, okay, we have safety rules, you need to follow the rules, but if you have three minutes, sometimes it's impossible. There is no rule that can help you if you don't have time to hide actually. So in general, it's not so safe, of course, but this summer tourists back to the city and it looks like optimistic. They are not afraid or maybe they're afraid, but they don't show it. They walk on the streets, they spend some time near the sea. And of course, to be near the seaside, it's quite, it's more dangerous than to you somewhere in the city center or in the sleepy area. Yeah, the streets are crowded, so it looks like optimistic. But on another hand, we still have these attacks from Crimea, mostly every day.

You yourself, you have a family relation to Crimea. Your roots are originally from Crimea.

Yeah, I was born there. But when I went to the first class of school, we moved to Odesa. It was many, many years ago, 1996 or 7, something like that, in 90s. Yeah, so yeah, we moved before the temporary occupation. And every time when I speak about this topic, I think, okay, my parents decide for me this fate, but what can be if not, and I'll stay and rise in that place and then 2014 come and what can be my decision in that case. Yeah, so I think it's good that we moved before.

How is it for you that you were born in a place that now from there where you were born, missiles are getting shot towards the city you are now living in? How is that for you personally?

Yeah, it's quite a strange situation and actually it's also strange that they use places like military bases where my father served the army in Soviet times. So when I read in the news and I can read these titles of the places of the villages I remember these titles from my childhood when my father described all the time that he served the army how it was how they deal with the aircraft with the military aircrafts, I remember that names of the aircraft that call it Su-27 or 25 and now they use these planes to attack us. It feels like a big dystopia, something that you cannot explain, that it looks like that something happened with reality, with time, with history and everything mixed in one place in one piece of time. Yeah, but anyway, we're still waiting for deoccupation. I still hope that I can back to Crimea. I all the time when somebody asked me, okay, maybe you're gathering money for something. I say, okay, I want to buy a house in Crimea. When I've been retired, I want to spend some time there. And it's mean that, okay, you still have time. I'm now I'm 35. So we still have some time for Ukrainian army to deoccupy Crimea. So yeah, because I'm gathering money, I want to invest in the house or apartments. Yeah, was the nice sea view. It's funny to speak about it. But of course, if we try to imagine this reality, it will be very difficult to bring it back.

Under control of the Ukrainian army you mean difficult for that?

Yeah, of course.

When we first met in 2018, you were working for the public broadcasting company of Ukraine, Suspilne Ukraine. When you think back of your work before the full-scale invasion, how has your work as a journalist been changed, what would you say? What is the biggest difference compared to your work today during Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine?

Everything changed. We could not imagine before when we took part in trainings for safety or medical aide training. We could not imagine that it could happen on such a massive, in every city, mostly in every big city. It was impossible to imagine. In the begining of 2022 you can hear it everywhere. I remember everyone started speaking about this backpack that you need to already have like a safety backpack. And it was everywhere this list with the things that you need to have in your backpack. And the situations already looks like a bit nervous. And then I got like around 10, 15 proposals every day from the foreign journalists who already came to Kyiv because they are looking for someone to work. And I remember thinking, okay, I think it doesn't mean if they're already here. It means that they're waiting for something. Yeah, and we checked the bomb shelters. We visited trainings of the locals who trained some military things in the Kyiv area and in the central part of Ukraine. But when it happened, it was like a moment of... Of course, it was really scary and you don't know what to do. I lost my backpack, so I took only some... I took my laptop to the shelter and some pills and that's all. No food, no clothes, no water. Yeah, now I try to understand how it's possible. You prepare for it like few months and then you're stuck in the shelter without food, water and... Yeah, so it's interesting because you try to prepare for this, but it's impossible to prepare for so massive attacks, for so crazy situation, for so massive movement of people. It was impossible to take any trains from Kyiv. We spent like six or seven hours on the train station. Yeah, because on that time at night on 24th of February, I've been in Kyiv. And then I spent some time in the central part of Ukraine and back to Odesa. After these big holidays in May, in the beginning of May, because I understood that they tried to attack the city on the 2nd of May, 9th of May. Because they usually use these historical dates to try to show their power on these dates. And then I back to Odesa. Okay, the question was how the journalism changed, how the work changed.

Yeah, how your work changed, know, compared during a time when Russia was already occupying parts of Ukraine, but like it was not a full-scale invasion. What is like for you as a journalist, what is like the biggest change, know, when you compare your work today to the work you were doing before February 2022.

It's quite difficult to answer, but we start feeling that this moment that's happening now, it's only one, like the last chance. We try to do everything that's at last, like the last thing that you're doing. So we start feeling that we don't have enough time for it. So if you want to do something, if you want to write about something or speak with someone, you need to do it now. Because it can happen that tomorrow you won't have tomorrow for something else. So we try to live in this moment. We can say this in general about life, about relations, about emotions. But as for me, my job as a journalist, a person who involves in the film, documentary film industry. So when I had some idea to speak with someone or to write or to pitch some story, I tried to do it like not immediately, but today or tomorrow. No, just to, okay, maybe, maybe in the end of the year or maybe in the next year. So, yeah, I tried to do it as quick as possible because on the other hand, we compare ourselves with soldiers and you all the time feel that you're doing not enough. So if somebody say to you, okay, it's maybe difficult to spend some time near the front line or when you visit the places after attacks, it can be difficult to write additional story or to film something. You all the time have this unhealthy feeling that you cannot say no, you cannot say that you are tired. You cannot say that you not, do not have enough power to do something because all the time you have this in mind. You have your friends who is on the front line and they're spent there. Some of them around like from the beginning. So soon, soon it will be around three years and you cannot say, you know, in this case, so it's completely unhealthy thing. But if you have this really strong symbol of heroism and power. mean, Ukrainian army. So, yeah, you try to be as active as possible. In your volunteering and in any small things that you can provide to the country, to your friends, to your close people, maybe it sounds a bit strange or some a bit, how to say romantic or... but yeah this is how it is.

So if I understood you correctly, just to summarize shortly what you said. It became basically impossible to make any plans for your future. So you try to do everything as soon as possible because you don't know what's going to be like in two days or in three days. And at the same time, you feel like constantly, if I understood you correctly, guilt, right? That other people are suffering and giving their lives. And you in the meantime are a civilian person and there is so much you can do as a civilian person. Did I summarize correctly what you wanted to say?

Yeah, we always have this feeling that we're doing not enough. nobody knows what enough. Of course, there is an option for everyone. Women also can join the army. But it's always the feeling that you're doing not enough. Yeah, this is with so many people live now. I speak about my friends and people with whom I speak about about this unpleasant things sometimes.

What would you say: You mentioned that you are now 35 years old. What would you say like as a woman, you know, working as a journalist in Ukraine: Would you say that it changed over time? Would you say that women working as a journalist were, when you started working or a few years ago, were treated differently or did you never ever came across any imbalance towards women working in the field?

I can say that to work as a woman in journalism in Ukraine, it's always struggle. It's always a journey, especially if you try to work with military topics or if you want to spend some time with the army. As example, in 2018 or 2019, I planned to write a piece about Ukrainian Navy and I asked them to spend some time on the Navy ship and I wrote like so many letters, I made so many calls, I explained them. It's important to spend some time, like day or two, because it was a group of the sailors who moved from Crimea and they lived on these military ships because there were no any apartments for them. So they live on these ships at winter, summer, and it was quite difficult to them. And my idea was to have this experience, to speak with them. But in the end, they say, yeah, yeah, of course, but you can spend on this ship only two hours, no more. Yeah, and then I said "Okay, yeah, so yeah, yeah, of course we can we can speak with the sailors. We gonna spend these two hours because it was only one option for us. Yeah, but then I realized that there is still maybe still this thing that there is no place for women on the military ships because because it was my idea it was no any words from them about it but this is how I feel. Yeah, so now, of course, it's impossible imagine this situation. was in 2017, I guess, something like that. Now it's more, everything is more strict, of course, but if you want to do some material, it's only a question of many, many letters and level of access. And of course, during the martial law, the government have the have the possibility to close some information. They can say, okay, we cannot give you access to this place or another place. It's understandable. But for now, it's everything that I faced, looks like that the press officers, persons from the local government. It's from my experience, they try to help as they can, or they try to explain why they cannot help you with some information or access.

So people on the ship, they did not tell you that there was no space for women on the ship. It's just like your assumption, right? They were not, you know, they were not telling you why exactly you were only able to spend there two hours and not two days as you have planned. Did I get that right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But I got this feeling because it was a really long history of the military ships of the Navy.

I'm curious to ask Irina. When I met you, you made a really strong impression on me as a very forward-thinking journalist in a surrounding that is not very easy, especially considering the position you had at the time at Suspilne, Ukraine. Would you say nowadays there are more women. in different positions at Suspilne Ukraine, at different media companies in Ukraine, would you say that has changed over time?

Yeah, in that time I worked as a producer at this branch of the Ukrainian public broadcasting company. And at some positions, yes, think journalism mostly all the time in my region, in my country have the women face because there is less money. It's obvious reason, but now there is another thing that so many men joined the army. I have like a few days ago I got the news that some guy that we worked together on Suspilne in Odesa, he joined the army. And then another guy, he joined the army before and he was lost an action. Now there is no enough men who who are able to work in journalism. it's like a dissertation became worse if you're speaking about gender equality, if we want to have women and men's voices in journalism. And then another guy, he joined the army before and he lost in action. Yeah, so now there are not enough men who are able to work in journalism. it's like a dissertation became worse if you're speaking about gender equality, if we want to have women and men's voices in journalism. You say like lost in action, that means it's not known where he is at the very moment. Yeah, it's mean when a person joined the army and he took some part in the operation and something happened. We don't know what actually happened, but there is no connection or information about him. And actually I have, this is the guy that we worked together on TV station and another story. I have a friend, he also lost in the Kherson region. He joined the army at the beginning of invasion and he was lost after one year something like that. Yeah so we don't know what happened where they are they can be captured by Russians and they can be in prisons in on their side it's best scenario for it yeah and the worst scenario is hhat thinks of like they can got some injury that is not impossible to live with it. I think it will be interesting to discover it, to follow these stories, but there are so many stories like this in Ukraine and actually we don't know the numbers of people who were lost in action.

Are you sometimes afraid of the day when you will know the numbers? The day when the numbers are going to be published at someday it will be known? Are you afraid of this day?

I think it will happen not so quickly. So I think they will hide this information for a long time. So maybe, maybe after, after some years or... 20 years or 15 years. I cannot say that it's scary. I can say that it's like information that you never can accept because on the one hand, if you speak about numbers and you see some big numbers, but in this case, how you can say big or not so big when you speak about someone's life. I think in this case, any numbers will look really sad and it will be not impossible to accept for Ukraine as a nation for a long time. We have big traditions of the funerals, the day of the Ukrainian army, of the different, different days that we can speak about it, that we can organize some events or public actions. And there are many films and it will be more films about it and books and everything. And maybe it will help us in the future overcome this trauma, but it's a long process.

Shortly before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine started, you started working for the Ukrainian Institute. Could you briefly describe what that is, the Ukrainian Institute for someone who has never heard of it?

Yeah, so in the end of 2021, I already, I'm stuck a bit in the moment that I don't know what to do, what is the next. So I work as a journalist around 10 years or a bit more. I try to do something in documentary filmmaking and actually I'm a bit tired of this active type of life. And I realized that I need something stable with the office regime, with colleagues, with them small butters on the kitchen if there is some Thursday or something like that. Yes, and I apply to the Ukrainian Institute and then they invite me and at beginning it looks like a government institution, everything according to the rules, but you are dealing with the culture on the one hand, but on the other hand you need to work with the papers, with many official procedures.

But then invasion happened and our stable life completely changed. Everything that I tried to find some stable place with nice colleagues. Yeah, everything changed. And Ukrainian Institute, it's an institution that affiliated with the Minister of Foreign Affairs and we promote Ukrainian culture abroad. And I work in the film sector.

And after invasion, we got so many letters, so many requests for Ukrainian films, for delegations, for explanations what happened, they... Like the many companies, festivals, they ask us to send them some films that they can show and to show to their audience. to screen and to show their audience Ukraine as a country more deeper. we joined this process and it was a busy and active, I think around two years of work because yeah, we tried to do as much as possible. We tried to send Ukrainian filmmakers on any...to every big film festival, just to promote Ukraine, speak about invasion, to screen their films. And we also help them to find the partners, to build the partnerships and to find actually the money to produce the films because inside the country it's mostly impossible to find any support if you want to produce the film. Yeah, so this international networking system works. I can say that not so bad. We got good results. Yeah, so I'm dealing with this already around three years and we'll see what will be the next.

Do you still get many invitations and requests from abroad, know, compared to the beginning of the full-scale invasion and today what you say that, you know, like there is still like this high interest coming from abroad towards like the Ukrainian film?

A bit less than it was before at the beginning of invasion, but these contacts that we got from the beginning, from the first year, from 2022. We're still in the contact. We built really strong partnerships. We maybe changed our plans. So we now focusing more about long-term projects, not just one visit to the film festival and that's all. Because in the film industry, in the world film industry, it's nothing when you just once participated in one edition. And now we're more focusing on the long-term projects, on the...Something that will impact the Ukrainian film industry deeper, that can help filmmakers to find co-producers. Yeah, and we also try to all the time find new focuses, how to speak about the war, what additionally we can explain, what focus, what themes or genre we can promote. It's an interesting journey and it's a really long process. You need to be good in the film industry, you need to understand it, you need to understand how the industry works in Ukraine and abroad. And you need to be very polite and you need to really try to understand other nations. Not just to push them or that they must see Ukrainian films and support us. It doesn't help. You need to find the small links, small details, these ways to everyone to explain what is happening and why does it mean to their country, what does it mean to us and what does it mean to everyone actually.

I read about the Ukrainian Institute that it aims to form a positive image of Ukraine abroad. When traveling abroad, speaking to people who are coming from abroad, who are coming outside from Ukraine, what are prejudices you met when talking to people? What are images of Ukraine that you heard from foreigners or were confronted by foreigners that you would like to change?

At the beginning it was more questions, something like, how are you? How is life? And after it's more questions about, the war still going on? Yeah, something like that. If it still attacks, if it still, do you have salaries or do you have food sometimes I got these questions as well It depends from the country and from them People if it just some random visitor visitor of the festival, it's one thing. But if it's someone from the industry they more interesting in the new projects safety What how they can help or what additionally they can provide to the Ukrainian filmmakers. Yeah, so it depends from the audience. If it's someone who have friends or who check in the news every day or it's someone really like random person who just heard about Ukraine and asks how is everything? But actually, I never met some bad comments or bad questions. So they are more like support or some of them wearing yellow and blue stripes or something like that or flowers at the airport or at the shops and they show it to you when they heard that you are from Ukraine.

How would you describe from what you hear from filmmakers in Ukraine? How is it even possible during war times, you to make any bigger film projects? How is that working and in how far is the industry like totally changed by war?

It's not easy, but for them it's the things to survive because when in difficult time you have something to do, when you have something that you need to finish, it helps you to survive and it helps you to continue your work. And of course, as I said, for some people it's also a possibility to overcome their trauma. If you look at the world, from the distance through the camera, it looks not so scary. But if you are without camera, if you're in these events, if you're a person who randomly participate in these historical events, it's really scary. So I think the film production for some people, it's the way to find the distance between war and their mental state. According to production, money, safety, logistics, everything changed and it became difficult. And according to permissions, heroes, everything. But the main thing is that it helps filmmakers to continue to survive and they found their mission in this and it's really good because. When the big historical events happen, it's always good that you have someone to film it. To film it for the future, to film it for history, to universities, to just to other people in other countries, just to show how it was. Without it, I can't imagine that we can survive and we cannot continue our fight. On international level as well, because this is a part of the struggling to show what happened and the film industry documentaries, it's one of the, I cannot say the best thing, but one of the very, very useful thing. And I want to believe that maybe some very big decisions in EU was made after they watched something about frontline, about Bucha, about attacks on the hospitals, on maternity hospital in Mariupol. I want to believe that it helps to open eyes to someone and to show actually how it was.

That leads me to my final question for you. What does help you personally to get a certain distance between everything that is happening around you? What does help you to endure the life during these war times in Ukraine?

The same camera. I try to film everything that happened in Odesa, just for my private archive for now. My cat. When you have someone or something to treat to my home plants, they need water from me, like at summer, mostly every day and sport. Yeah, I discovered that this is a good thing to protect your mental health. So yeah, these things really helped me. And yeah, to be on the ground. It's always good to speak with the people. When you heard all these stories, you can find a big power in these stories. When you heard stories of soldiers or your close friends of just local people who still, I don't know, selling the tomatoes on the market in the morning at six after night of drone attacks. It really helps because you feel that you're not alone. You feel that it's not just you feel this bad inside. It's connected to everyone.

Iryna Kyporenko, thank you so much for being my guest today. I wish you to stay safe in Odesa and of course to everyone you know and of course your cat as well. Thank you so much for taking time today. We're back with Yak ty? in two weeks time. Thank you. Stay safe. Bye.

Stay safe. Bye.