EP.18: From Work-Life Balance to War-Life Balance with Yuliia Turba

Luzia Tschirky: Welcome to the podcast “Yak ty? Ukraine Live”. “Yak ty?” is Ukrainian and means “how are you?”. I’m your host, Luzia Tschirky, a former correspondent, now a book author and a freelance journalist. The aim of this podcast is as always to give Ukrainians an opportunity to share the very personal experience of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Today's guest on the show is Yuliia Turba. Yuliia is a Kyiv based public policy specialist with a master's degree from the Central European University. She has worked for the United Nations and in civic education and openly shares her experience during wartime on social media. Thank you so much for joining me here today on the podcast, Yuliia.

Yuliia Turba: Thank you.

Luzia Tschirky: As always, I start this podcast with a question. Yak ty saras? How are you, right now?

Yuliia Turba: Thank you. What I can answer to this question is, I am definitely feeling a little bit exhausted, little bit a little bit tired, but you know, quite hopeful because the past two weeks were very hard for Kave. I would even say the past month was quite hard in terms of attacks and emotional pressure on people here. it's. We, you know, we suffer the attacks at night, then we wake up, we go to work, we do our routines, we try to manage everything and that's what I can say about me and people around. So definitely tired, definitely exhausted, but very hopeful.

Luzia Tschirky: I'm very glad to hear that you're hopeful and that you find strength, even in this very difficult moment in time for Ukraine and for Kyiv especially, the capital city of Ukraine. When you're looking back to the very beginning of the full-scale invasion, you were back then in Budapest, in Hungary, but being abroad has not been easier for you than being in Ukraine, your home country itself. Can you describe how the first days of the full-scale invasion have been for you?

Yuliia Turba: Of course, you're correct. When the full-scale invasion started, I was in Budapest and the weeks before that I felt something, you know, reading the news, I felt something in my body that something was coming up and I just couldn't accept that. But when it finally happened, I actually overslept. So, during the actual attack, my friends already and my family already went through this first wave of shock and then I had to just keep up with them a little bit later. But it was only just the beginning. I spent, I think, the first day of the full scale invasion, I spent probably crying. It felt surreal. It felt wrong. It felt just something that you never thought could happen. And it felt very weird just living in the city that while the whole country was being under attack and I was in peace. The first week of the full-scale invasion were very blurry and I felt like my mind is just a huge barrel overflowing with the information, with emotions. I didn't know what to do with that. I was not eating, I was not sleeping, I was just trying to do something. So I decided that I wanted to go and volunteer at the train station. My buddy was just sort of on the autopilot. And I felt completely disoriented, dysregulated. You know, you don't really think how war affects you in this moment. then while I'm reflecting back to these times, I remember I really wanted to go back home and I was texting my parents that I want to come. But they said that there's not enough space in the bathroom for me. So I had to stay abroad. Of course, they were concerned about my safety. And there's a very common misconception that safety automatically means that you're going to feel good and physical safe doesn't mean that you're going to feel emotionally good. I started having this survival, I would say the guilt of the survived, when you are in the safe space but someone you love or someone who is dear is not and then you start feeling guilty for having a life and not being threatened by a bomb. But I thought that, maybe if I were in Ukraine under fire, I would feel better, felt more real. But then, you know, in this moment, I consciously or not consciously understood that the war will have a huge effect on me for sure, 100%.

Luzia Tschirky: You just mentioned your parents telling you that there is not enough room for you in the bathroom where they were sleeping because of the attacks by Russian forces on Ukraine. For people who are not living in a war zone, they might not be aware of the fact that people in Ukraine try to take shelter in their bathrooms. Firstly, if there is no other option available or whether the other option like a shelter is too far away. I just read, I think yesterday I read in the news that in Kyiv it's now suggested by authorities or authorities recommend that people are not seeking shelter anymore in their bathrooms because it's not considered to be safe enough. Can you describe a little bit what the current situation is just because you mentioned like the situation with your parents and what they told you? Can you describe what the current situation is and why bathrooms are not considered to be at least a basic shelter.

Yuliia Turba: Yuliia Turba: Yeah, thank you. I heard about this too. so just for the context for the listeners, there was this common basic war rule. If there is an attack on the city, you either have to go to the bomb shelter or to any sort of shelter, which is considered safe for the attacks. Or if you do not have time or there is no bomb shelter nearby, you have to hide in the place.which has two walls in between. So basically, one of the walls will take the hit and then another one will save you from the explosion wave. Currently here in Kyiv, considering the extensity of the attacks and that they are quite heavy the past few months, heavier than they were before because Russia is firing more missiles at the same time. I'm not going to go deeper into the tactics that they are using because this is a very, like it's sort of a military information and it's, it's a lot, I will spend a lot of time talking about it, but basically because of the complexity of this attacks, now the possibility of the building being hit by a heavy missile, like ballistic missile is higher than it was before. So as our last case, last attack two attacks in Kyiv showed when the entire, like half of the building was destroyed, five, six floors, which means the missile can go through the walls and the two, it can even go up to the, down to the basement, which means that the two walls rules doesn't really work anymore. So that's why there has been some changes. That's why the authorities are currently calling to go inside of the shelter and to actually hide there.

Luzia Tschirky: You just described that, you know, like how the situation changes over time and also like security measures talking more a bit from a personal perspective. When do you think was the moment when you thought about you yourself as a person, you as Yuliia, you are not going to be the same after your experience of Russia's full-scale invasion. When was that?

Yuliia Turba: I would probably say it was from the day one, the moment that even probably before. You know, I have to sort of also give a little bit of the context. I grew up in a military town in the west of Ukraine. One of the biggest brigades is located there. We have a huge military base nearby. I grew up listening to the to explosions because they were also always testing something on the ground there nearby. I could always see people in the military uniform with a gun, securing something. I was in this environment since I was a child, and I was absolutely terrified of war. One of my biggest fears in life was that there will be war in my country or in the world, it doesn't matter. You know, we could always hear stories from the second about the second World War about how terrible and how horrible all of the, all of the madness that was happening during this time. So, I was always scared that something like that is going to happen in my country. would say going back to 2014, I was a teenager, but I could already understand that something, you know, we're not going to grow up as normal teenagers. We're going to grow up helping the military, volunteering, collecting fundraising money for the guys on the front line. In 2022, when I was an adult, when I was more conscious than I was in 2014, I definitely understood that the war would reshape me. Psychologically, forced me to actually confront the fear of war to deal with this helplessness and to deal with the sort of displacement that I had being abroad, I was not really prepared for it. You can never be prepared for it. It's something that just catches you out of the blue and then you have to get out of your comfort self and deal with it. I actually learned... I developed a survival mechanism when I moved back to Ukraine because I moved in 2023. I learned how to be adaptive, how to actually understand that yes, I am a fragile human being, but I can adapt to any sort of events happening in my life. And then also socially, it really reshaped me because I had to filter who is going to be in my friends group, say it like this, who I am talking to, what we are talking about, how are you handling, what are you saying about certain problems in the world, certain topics. And it really, you know, before I was very diplomatic, was, I was trying to listen to all sort of opinions around me. And then after the full scale invasion started, it was just the filter became thicker. I would say it like that.

Luzia Tschirky: Would you say that with the war, with the full-scale invasion, because the war was already going on since 2014, would you say with the full-scale invasion it became clear who is who or like the people were more kind of presenting themselves like with their kind of core personality than before the full-scale invasion? Or how actually would you describe how you recognize that people were maybe not who you really thought they were?

Yuliia Turba: Thank you for such a good question because I think a lot of people from Ukraine can relate to it. I would say that I grew up with... By definition of my nationality, who I am and the morals, they were within my family, at school. And that's something that I was always taught because I come from the west of Ukraine. Historically, we had a little bit different situation than the rest. All different parts of Ukraine, we had a little bit less Russian Empire influence, but we had a lot of other things going on in history. you know, as I said, I always grew up... Knowing that it's my country, have to be patriotic. We have come a very long way towards our independence and now we have this right to choose to vote, to actually do the state building process with our hands, not dependent on anyone else. so my surrounding, I would say, was sharing my views all the time. But then when I went abroad, your surrounding changes a little bit. meet people from other countries who can have controversial views, opinions about something. the full-scale invasion filtered the people who were neutral, I would say, people who were against Ukraine being as an independent state. Because I wouldn't say that these people were my friends, but these people were around me somewhere in the university, at jobs. You cannot really prepare yourself to meet them. But I can definitely say that I became a bit more radical. My opinion just became more stable, you know, and it's just... Grey became less in my life but black and white a little bit more.

Luzia Tschirky: You had also a bigger change in your professional life recently. You decided to step away from your job at the United Nations. Can you tell us what led you to that decision?

Yuliia Turba: So since 2022, I knew that I wanted to come back to Ukraine, but first I had to finish my masters in Vienna. I actually graduated from public policy program, and I knew that the best decision, best way to use my skills is to be in Ukraine and do it for my country. So, in 2023, I was offered the position at the United Nations Department of Safety and Security. I saw a job that brought me home and I was quite proud to take it. But the work was quite internal. It was very important. But yes, I would say that it was quite invisible because I had to focus a lot on the internal processes, internal operations. And it was a lot about the logistics paperwork, etc. you know, after like I would say one and half years I realized something that I wouldn't want to be useful just in theory while I'm young and I am in Ukraine, but I want to be useful in real time and on the ground. And I wanted to feel my work land. I wanted to see the impact. I wanted to see that I'm influencing something, not just the outline in some sort of report. So then I joined the... I moved into another United Nations. I would say direction. And I joined the environmental project, which again, I thought I didn't think I still think like this. It was a very deep and valuable project for Ukraine focused on environmental issues. It was quite urgently needed to consider the environmental impact that Russia, the Russian invasion put on on Ukraine. But again, my work became again very internal. And you have to understand one thing that United Nations is a very bureaucratic institution that does not really allow you to see the impact immediately. It's a very, it's quite, it depends on the project, of course, but it's, it's something that you need to understand. And another thing that sort of created like a little dissonance in me is that it's, it's the institutional neutrality. I wanted to advocate, and I did. At the same time, I was advocating for Ukraine and I was speaking about military, speaking about the vital things that are happening here and expressing my opinion and considering my job that it was quite neutral and I had to filter a lot of things that I say publicly, especially considering the fact that I had United Nations in my bio or on LinkedIn or I had social media connected to the organization which is absolutely normal. A lot of organizations and companies have the same rules, but it's just something that I could not correlate to. And I started thinking, how can I impact with working at United Nations and having a voice about Ukraine? And then that's when I was offered a job at the Snake Island Institute and my current position is to is the advocacy manager and I have to advocate directly for Ukrainian defense abroad and I think it was a very clear and easy yes because. I think it was a very difficult transition because United Nations. Brings you a lot of stability. I would say speaking from a personal perspective, but it's also it also has a lot of great projects happening here in Ukraine and it does a lot of, does a lot of good things, I would say. it's just something I wanted to see the fast impact. I want it to be useful immediately. So that's why I did this job switch. I believe that if you have a voice, that you have to use it, especially when your country is under attack. I can always come back to you and if I want to, it's not a problem at all. Maybe I will in the future when I have more expertise or when I have this voice. But for now, feel like my spot, my place is here working for Ukrainian defense, working with Ukrainian defense and, you know, helping them, helping this industry to actually thrive and be respected abroad.

Luzia Tschirky: Can you describe for people who are not so familiar with the field you're working in, how your work looks like, you know, what it looks like? If there is such a thing like an average workday, how would you describe it to people who are not so familiar?

Yuliia Turba: Well, you actually touched on quite interesting two topics, average workday, because average workday in Kyiv is, I can definitely speak about it too. if I'm saying about my position is that, and my organization that I worked at, we are a military analytical center that works with Ukrainian military, with Ukrainian defense. And we are being the bridge between Ukrainian defense industry and at this particular moment, United States. So, we are advocating for Ukrainian defense in the US and it actually has different directions. It's analytics, defense, tech, it's advocacy. It's being Ukrainian voice abroad. So, Ukraine is still being talked about. Ukraine is being heard, what's most important, not just talk, but being heard. And that's my goal as an advocacy manager. Because Ukrainian defense is, know, Ukrainian army is one of actually the strongest ones in the world at the moment. And we have such a huge capacity and such a huge field to, huge expertise because what we gained at the front line after the invasion is something that, considering the DS, the not very stable situation in the world right now in terms of the political instability and also the military instability. I think other countries have a lot to learn from Ukraine when it comes to defense. These topics are quite sensitive to speak about, I understand. I know I was a very big pacifist in the past and, you know, neutrality and pacifism are a privilege. Ukraine does not have that privilege. We have to step out of our comfort zone and speak about these topics and actually explain that there is a difference that between that war is not just, you know, pure war. It is absolutely terrible. is. I wish there was nothing ever, ever like this in the world, but. We have to understand what to do when the sovereign country gets invaded. What is defense? So that's sort of my work. But if we're saying about the average day, my average day in Kyiv, this is something a bit different because it basically just looks like, we call it a war life balance, not a work life balance, but a war life balance. And it may sound strange, but it's just you wake up, your day is split in two, you just check how many bombs were dropped and where the last night, how is the frontline moving. You go to the bathroom, you go to the gym, coffee, emails, you check again what is going on in the frontline. You talk to people, you think, okay, is my country going to exist in the nearest two years? Then, okay, I have to do the nails appointment, email, makeup, meeting with friends, meeting with some policymakers in defense. Then there is an air raid alert. You have to hide in the shelter. You have to work from the shelter. You're sitting there. You're thinking, OK, what should I do on the weekend? Maybe I should go kayaking. And it creates this constant mess in your head that sometimes I just I do not understand how we exist like that for, we have been existing like that for the past three years. And it's such a multi, like it has multiple levels of this complexity, I would say. And it just, it helps you to discover something about yourself, the way you react to stress, the way you become numb to certain things going on in the society and around you. So yeah, it's very layered, I would say. You have to mix grief, joy, sadness, happiness, goofiness, seriousness. You have to be professional every day. You have to look good. it's always something in the back of your head. Is it okay to laugh today? You always have to also think about the morality, the moral that you have. So, you know, Ukrainians just live a very difficult life, I would say.

Luzia Tschirky: What would you say, what have you discovered about yourself you were not aware of before the full-scale invasion?

Yuliia Turba: I think I've lost some parts of myself, but I also, as I said, found new ones in me. I feel like in the past I was quite sensitive and very emotional. But then since the invasion, noticed that I have this kind of emotional dueling. I became less anxious, but then also less responsive. My brain developed the sort of filter, like it's a defense mechanism that, I think it's called in psychology, it's called blunting or something like that. And so I process things cognitively, but with a delay, I can intellectually understand a lot of things that are going on. But then emotionally, I feel like it's a distance. Why? Because it's something that it developed unconsciously. It's not something that I did consciously, but it protects me. It also isolates me from certain heavy feelings that I can experience every day. And I am 100 % sure that a lot of people in Ukraine can relate because I speak daily to my friends and they definitely say that it's the same for them. You know, and it's just sometimes one time I was being asked like how do you advocate if you if you do not feel a lot of things emotionally. I think I can answer that. I just turn that into actions and I speak, I build, I act. Maybe I don't feel it that much emotionally, but then this empathy is still inside of me. It's just I just do not react as I was reacting before know numbness is not always indifference, sometimes it's just your nervous system trying to protect you operationally. So yeah, this is something that developed over time after the full-scale invasion for me.

Luzia Tschirky: You personally are not a soldier. And if I correctly understood, you have not been serving in the army before. Was that difficult or maybe is that still difficult today to, you do your work together, you know, with the defense industry in Ukraine while yourself, you're not having like this experience of being a soldier. Is that difficult for you sometimes?

Yuliia Turba: You know, I think in Ukraine right now, a lot of people and all of us every day, we carry this question. Am I doing enough to end this war or to support people at the front? Should I be doing more? And that was sort of the question when I asked myself when I was in the United Nations and I got this offer to join and advocate for defense, for Ukrainian defense. I think there is probably nothing that can compare to what people at the frontline are carrying. And I think they are having, they are doing the biggest work here in Ukraine at the moment and they are carrying the heaviest burden. And that's something I definitely think about constantly and I definitely handle it with respect and gratitude. And I feel very honored to work closely with the military because thanks to our defenders, we still exist here as a country and I can still give you this and I participate in this podcast today. you know, someone asked me recently, do you think you have a right to speak for the military? And my answer was no, I do not speak for the military. But I can make, you know, I can help to make sure that their voices reach the people who need to hear them. And I think that's quite also an important work and I can carry what they're asking for and I can create clear, urgent and true messages. So, you know, work can be fought in many domains and in many different areas. And as I was speaking to some I was some representative of military recently and they said, you know, the front line would collapse without the back and we are being here as a back and everyone can define their own role in this war and it's on them. I'm not the one who can say who has to do what because I'm not in the position to do that. People define that for themselves. There is a front line, there are lines behind it of supply, communication, diplomacy, truth, a lot of different areas where you can find yourself. You can find yourself in the structure 100%. I see my role as supporting, as clearing space, as building this understanding, the connection, this correlation between the defense and the world abroad of Ukraine. have to make sure that Ukraine's voice is being loud and clear and we are still out there. you know, everyone has to contribute the way they can. I definitely think that we all have to work very hard. We cannot stay neutral in this country. We cannot stay indifferent. We have to work very, very hard because our home is at stake.

Luzia Tschirky: So when you think back to the situation before the full-scale invasion started, if someone back then, in 2021 would have told you, Yuliia, you're going to work in this field of work you're now in, would you have believed that person? What would you think? What would have been your reaction if someone told you like four years ago, that's going to be the job you're doing?

Yuliia Turba: I would not believe them for sure. I would not believe them. know, also recently after a conversation with one of my friends who is in the military, she asked me, looking back in time, have you ever thought if the full-scale invasion did not happen, would you still work in defense or in security or in this, you know, in the similar area? And I said, no. No, absolutely not. I was probably going to work with children. I wanted to work with kids. But war reshaped our plans. A lot of people who were successful engineers, business owners, politicians, they went to the front line to defend our country. They also did not think that something like that could happen to them. People who died in combat, who were killed at the front, they also did not think that something like that would happen to them. It's something that can be a good message to Europe at the moment. I speak to a lot of people abroad and they are 100 % sure that nothing can ever happen in their countries. you know, I always say, yeah, Ukraine thought the same, the same thing. And it's just, as I said, war reshapes, war brings changes to your life and you have to learn how to adapt. It can be terrifying. It can be scary. You can be in denial as long as you want. But I'm speaking actually about myself, but then, bam and you're here. yeah, my answer is absolutely not.

Luzia Tschirky: Talking about plans, you just mentioned that, you know, whether you would have planned this career path for you or not. Are you currently actually, is it possible for you to make any plans into the future or are you trying to, know, like live day by day as you described it, how like that there is not such a average work life balance, but a war life balance in Kyiv, right? What you say you are actually able to plan your life into the future or is that not possible for you? At the moment, how is that?

Yuliia Turba: I do plan, I still plan because that just brings me a little bit, it brings me this light feeling of normality. You need to have plans, you need to have hope. Some people look for the hope in religion, in therapy, a lot of different ways for us to still have, to build something in the future to rely on. And having plans, it gives you hope. And that's why I still do it. That's why I definitely plan. I plan trips. I plan what I'm going to do here in Kyiv in one year. I do not know what's going to happen to me. But, you know, also one very important thing that I realized over the past two years living here in Ukraine is that... think personally I have accepted the concept of death, which may sound terrifying because this is something that we do not like to speak about, but it's a very important topic for every Ukrainian because we face death every single day. And it's just the understanding that it can happen. I can, you know, you never know what's going to happen to you and your house tomorrow. I may have a conversation here with you, but tomorrow my apartment can be hit by a missile. It's just, this acceptance also gives you some freedom, if I may say it like that. And it just gives you a little bit of just enjoying the moment, this feeling of enjoying the moment. So it's a very complex thing at the same time, you know, I plan, but then I also understand that I may not be here tomorrow. So it leaves you with only enjoying the present. Living every day at fullest, noticing the small things, talking to people, telling them I love you more, spending time with them. I actually, I think I started having a little bit of the fear of missing opportunities here in Kyiv, because you constantly, you want to spend as much time with the loved ones. You want to be present everywhere. You don't want to miss anything. So it's, there are a lot of events in Kyiv that you just want to multiply yourself and be everywhere at the same time, it's not possible. I hope you understand my message, what I mean by this. I can definitely say that a lot of people relate to this.

Luzia Tschirky: People of your age in peaceful countries or countries which are not attacked are not faced with death usually on such a regular basis as you are. When you're in contact, as I mentioned before, you have a lot of contact outside of Ukraine with people living outside of Ukraine, would you say you can feel a difference between the people of your age in Ukraine when you talk to them, when you have conversations with them and with people outside of Ukraine of your age, that there is something different between you? Would you say there's a difference?

Yuliia Turba: It's a very interesting question because I must say that I do have a bubble of people which I share my views with. It's very important because I am probably not, I do not probably face every day any very different opinions, I would say. So, I can say that there's definitely a difference because I come abroad. I go and visit my friends in Budapest from time to time, like every six months. I also travel a little bit. I talk to people during my trips. know, people, I was in Europe in the past two years only. I was not traveling to the US or to Asia. So I can say about Europe, but I can say that they're a little bit, they're definitely more carefree. They don't have to worry about these things that I spoke before. They do not have this layer defense mechanisms. They do not have PTSD, the collective PTSD, I would say, because we all have it here, all of us. But it just, as I said, it's a little bit difficult for me to answer this question because I was not in contact with the average young people, let's say like this. It's still a bubble. It's still a bubble. It's still people who are advocating for Ukraine, even if they are foreigners. These are still people who I share my views with. But... That can say also a lot about the young people in Europe. There's still a lot of people who care. There's still a lot of people who come and visit here, us in Ukraine. We share the experience, we share our knowledge, we listen to each other, which is very important.

Luzia Tschirky: I assume that sometimes after, you you're now back for two years, the full-scale invasion is going on for more than three years. That sometimes it can get harder by time, you know, after, you know, one year, two years, three years that it's getting harder. What will you say? What gives you personally strength to carry on with your work and to find motivation to get up every morning in this war-work-balance you're having?

Yuliia Turba: Thank you. I would say it's people. It's a very simple answer. It's people. You know, I look at Ukrainians every day, not the headlines, not the news, but just the people around me and the ones who wake up every day, go to the metro, go to work and just keep going and continue supporting our country and actually rebuilding because we are speaking about the reconstruction of Ukraine too at the moment here, know, in this society. You know, it's about the medics who return to work after losing everything. It's about the firefighters who keep coming and helping getting people out of the destroyed buildings. It's about volunteers who go to the frontline every day. It's about the just normal average people that you meet on the train station, on the bus stations at work. Then you listen to each of their stories and you understand why this country still exists. And it's also a lot about the artists that keep creating, keep making our country beautiful, keep talking about it, keep making it exposed in the world. And it's... It's not something abstract, it's active and it's earned and it just comes from watching. I mean, I speak about strength or motivation to keep going. It just comes from watching other people live with such a corgi that you actually cannot stop. You will be too ashamed to say, oh, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I can't do it anymore. You see them and you just stand up and you do more and more and more. It's for me personally, it's also a lot about the discipline. It's something that I choose and it just, I just understand that if I give up as just little tiny piece of this country, it can, the whole system can collapse. It may sound a little bit too much that I'm just a little tiny person there, but all of us are little tiny people here that keep this country going.

Luzia Tschirky: Thank you so much, Yuliia, for joining me here today on this podcast and thank you so much for being such an inspiration, I think, to all of our listeners. Thank you and take care and I hope this summer is going to be as safe for you as possible.

Yuliia Turba: Thank you.

Luzia Tschirky: You're so welcome.

Yuliia Turba: Thanks, it was good talking to you.