EP. 17: Motherhood, War, and Resilience with Lisa Yasko

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Welcome to the podcast “Yak ty? Ukraine Live”. “Yak ty?” means “how are you?” in Ukrainian. I’m your host, Luzia Tschirky, a former correspondent, now a book author and a freelancer. Today's guest on the show is Lisa Yasko. Lisa Yasko is a Ukrainian politician, cultural affairs expert and film producer. She's been a member of Ukraine's parliament since 2019, focusing on foreign policy and working on defend her country's sovereignty. Lisa studied at Taras Shevchenko National University in Kyiv and later earned a master's degree at Oxford Blavatnik School of Government. Beyond politics, she produced a documentary on Russia's occupation of Crimea. And on a personal note, she is mother to a three-year-old daughter. Lisa, welcome to the podcast. It's a real honor to have you here.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Thank you for your invitation.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I start this podcast with the question: Yak ty saras? How are you, right now?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: That's a very difficult question to all of us. It is a very hard summer. I think it's the hardest summer since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. Because the attacks in Kyiv and over Ukraine became so massive that it is very hard to stay mentally and physically healthy. And of course, on a global scale things look very, very sad.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I just cannot imagine how difficult life must be for all of you living in Ukraine. At the beginning, I would like to briefly talk about the very first day of the full-scale invasion, February 24th in 2022. Back then, you were in the capital of Ukraine, you were in Kyiv, and you were pregnant at this time. When you first heard about the full-scale invasion, what was going through your mind at this point in time?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Well, all of us couldn't believe that it was happening. And in my head, when I woke up to the sound of explosions, my main thought was how to get to the parliament because we have to vote for the martial law. And I was almost seven months pregnant and still was trying not to make it very public, because of the reasons of who the father of my child is. I didn't want to be exposed even more to the Russian propaganda. So, I was thinking that I have to be in the parliament and how to get there and I called my father, woke him up. He was sleeping, I called my mother, she also didn't hear the explosion because she has some hearing problems and I thought, okay, that's actually a good moment when you have a hearing problem because you didn't hear that yet. Yeah, so it was the first moments, and I was trying to understand what shall it bring with me to the parliament and then I just went by car. So that was it.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: You said that you were not publicly speaking at this point in time about your pregnancy because of the father of the child and you did not want to get exposed more to Russian propaganda as you already were, just by being a member of the Ukrainian parliament, I assume. Can you briefly tell listeners who are not familiar with your personal life who the father of the child is and why you were trying not to publicly announce the pregnancy at this point of time.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: So before full-scale invasion, I was in the relationship with Mikhail Saakashvili, who is the former president of Georgia. We lived as one family, as a happy family, and we were planning to have a child. And he went to Georgia and got arrested exactly around the time when I got pregnant. I was going every week to visit prison in Georgia and since he is the enemy of Russia, it was very much the topic of lots of Russian propaganda. And I really, I was not very careful in thinking about my security. I actually never thought about my security, but I think some of the mother's instinct start to work at certain stage. So, I didn't want to make it public just because I didn't want the propaganda, the media to talk about all of this and also the fact that Mikhail was poisoned and many very bad things were happening to his human rights situation. I didn't want our personal story that our daughter will be born to be in the heart of attention. But that's very sad because I was thinking more about the propaganda and other things rather than about myself, about my health and my daughter.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: It's challenging to become a parent anyway. And I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been becoming a mother during a full-scale invasion while your country was invaded by the Russian army. And while the Russian army was attacking and unfortunately is still attacking hospitals and maternity wards. How did you manage to cope in this situation and just not to freeze in anxiety?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Well, it's very... I cannot answer this question. Things that were happening in that hours and days are a part of the history. And you didn't have time to think, you just had to act. And I was staying in Kyiv for the first days of the full-scale invasion and then after I understood that the sabotage groups are already working in Kyiv, that everyone knows where our house is, where we used to live, that maybe it makes sense to start moving somewhere more western part of Ukraine. But I'm not the person with anxiety from all of that. I have unfortunately different pages of my life connected to the hardcore. So, whether I do have some immune system to it or no, I don't know. I don't like to think this way because sometimes I wish I had a much easier life, but I don't. So, that's how it happened and I didn't have time to think. I just had to make decisions.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I recently talked to a very good friend of mine in Kyiv. And she told me that she just got so tired of the constant air raids and the sirens that she decided that she cannot go up again at night and seek shelter because she's just so tired and she needs some sleep. How are you seeking shelter, especially when you're having a family.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: We don't go to shelter because if you go to the shelter all the time you just cannot keep up with your life. The air sirens are every day, very often three, four, five times per day. And if you react to all of that, you will not survive. But sometimes when there are massive attacks, especially recently, it's just not possible to keep sleeping. So, you wake up to those terrible sounds of drones speeding up and air defense working then ballistic missiles flying, you hear that it's very close or a little bit further and that's not the sounds where you can still stay in bed. So, in my case I take my daughter, and we go to the corridor and sometimes to the bathroom, but that's not like something that provides security, just some small extra measures. But in fact, of course, you have to have like a proper shelter. But we don't really have that. And also, there are cases when people die in the shelter if there is a missile that reaches the shelter. It happened, especially recently a number of times. So, it's not something that gives you 100 % guarantee.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: A mother of a two-year-old child told me, a mother living close to Kyiv, that her two-year-old daughter already can differentiate between the sounds of a drone and the sounds of a missile. Is this the same situation, the same experience you have as a mother that your daughter already can differentiate at such a young age between the different weapons the Russian army is using against Ukraine?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: No, she cannot differentiate the types of weapons, but she can definitely differentiate that there is an air alarm because she goes to the kindergarten and they go immediately to the underground and very often it happens during the time when they sleep. So, the teachers wake them up and then a child didn't sleep. Of course, the whole day goes in the wrong direction. So, I also have a dog and the dog, it's something actually that I find very sad because the dogs simply doesn't sleep the whole night from anxiety and from the fear because of all these sounds. And I think if the dog, if my dog could talk, she would tell for sure different types of the sounds because she definitely knows sometimes even before the air alarm comes and then the whole night she doesn't sleep.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I'm so sorry to hear about your dog when I'm correctly informed you have a Swiss Shepherd, right? You have like this white Swiss Shepherd. Such a nice dog, by the way. Such a nice dog you have.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Yes, very beautiful, yes.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Can you tell us more about your working life? What does a typical day, if something like this actually exists, looks like for a member of parliament, you know, during a full-scale invasion?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: So when we have a plenary days, which means that we need to be in the parliament and to vote for the laws, after almost every second and now very often almost every night of non-sleeping and air sirens and missiles, we just at 7, 8 o'clock in the morning we keep going with our life after the sleepless night. We are going to the parliament, we are going to the kindergartens, bringing our children to the schools, kindergarten, doing all things that usual persons would do, but very exhausted. But very exhausted feeling.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I was very astonished to read that during this whole time of the full-scale invasion, that meetings were held in person, that members of parliament were actually always meeting in person. That the Rada, that's the name for the Ukrainian parliament, that they never moved fully online. So, you met in person. How did you manage to that? To keep on working under these circumstances. How was that possible?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: There is no other answer. We just kept working. That's the thing. We are not allowed to have this voting online during the plenary, so the only physical presence matters. I think we do understand how important some of the votes are and how it is important to defend your country. So we have to be there. Some of the people who are not living full-time in Kyiv, for instance, if they have constituencies in other parts of Ukraine, they commute every second week to the parliament. Yes, but I can tell you that most of the people do have problems with health, with mental health already, because you cannot survive as a healthy person for a long time under such circumstances.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: When you could talk to your former self that got elected at the age of 28 if I'm not mistaken, what would you advise your former self, Lisa Josko, in 2019?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: I would say to myself that don't have illusions, it's going to be a hell. A hell on every possible topic, including personal life, including family, including professional, including security, including geopolitics. It's going to be a hell, a real hell. And just if you can prepare yourself better to be healthy and maybe to rely on some people that you trust, check people like their moral qualities more, don't trust everyone. I think that could help a little bit, but in general, don't think that things that happen to my life is something that a person can prepare to, because you cannot prepare to have the full-scale invasion. You cannot prepare suddenly to become a single mother. I mean, without planning to be a single mother, you cannot prepare for that. But then one day things happen to your life that you cannot control. And then at certain stage, after lots of pain that probably doesn't end, but maybe you manage to accept some of that pain, you stand up and you keep going.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: In a speech you gave last year at the Geneva Summit for Human Rights, you said, and I quote now: “So what has changed since February 2022 for us Ukrainians? We've learned that we shouldn't be naive, and we should rely only on ourselves.” End of quote. Did you feel at any point like abandoned that Ukraine as a country people living in Ukraine were kind of left alone by other countries by other parliaments of the world during this full-scale invasion?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: To a certain extent, for sure, because I don't think that any of other society, country could relate so much to what happened to Ukraine and to our lives. So it's very hard to accept and even to imagine. So definitely we feel most of the time very abandoned, but at the same time we do have the feeling of the solidarity that comes from some human part of the European society not only and I'm very grateful to it that so many people from Ukraine got so many hands of support by people opening their doors to provide a shelter in the time when it is very needed.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: When looking at what you were focusing on before the war on a political level, how did your focus and your initiatives also in parliament, how did they change during the full-scale invasion?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: They changed a lot because before the full-scale invasion I was working on foreign affairs, course questions on national security, sanctions, but some of these questions were very hard to push, even internally. But when the full-scale invasion happened, then all of these questions were finally the central in our work. And if you wanted to do something about other parts in politics, such as social, environmental issues, that's no longer so much a priority. For instance, you cannot really get budget funding for questions of culture or education so much, which is very sad. I think it's very wrong. But in the same time, we do need to provide more funding to the defense. And that's not what I like. I don't like that, for instance, we also had to vote in favor for raising, increasing the tax system in Ukraine. But that's important to get money to our defense budget. So, we have to do it. But in general, I'm against it. If it was not a war. But I'm supporting it because I understand that during the war it is important.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Could it be dangerous for you when you meet as all the members of parliament are gathered in one place or would you say that there is not a threat to the Ukrainian parliament when all members of parliament are meeting? How is that?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: We don't have enough security. We just sacrifice our lives all the time. We as the society, as the nation, and even as members of the parliament, we do understand that there are always risks. We do understand that we can be targeted. We do understand that. But we are not special, you know. Everyone can be targeted and everyone can suffer. So there is no any single, like, more security for the parliament for sure. I wish there was, but there is not.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: You briefly mentioned your parents that they also live in Kyiv. Was there ever a discussion within your family whether to stay in Ukraine or not? Has that ever come up during the whole time of the full-scale invasion?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: So, my parents don't want to leave and my father is working as a music teacher and my mom is very fatalistic, which I really don't like. So I think this is the conversation that sometimes I can start thinking about because if the circumstances were different, I think it makes sense to keep a part of your family away from

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: What do mean by your mother is sometimes fatalistic? What do you mean by that?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: So many Ukrainians including my mom, they believe that if the ballistics are drawn flies to a window and you're going to die then that's the destiny. And I don't like that approach.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Do you think that this could be a sign of also kind of a mental reaction in a way that your mental health after a certain point in time you're not able to cope anymore with this amount of stress?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Yes and no because of course it affects your mental health but in the same time this kind of approach and position is something that is was shared from the beginning of the war by many people who decided they're not leaving their houses even when they were like Russian tanks one kilometer away because for us the our land is very important our soil is very important and people just cannot imagine leaving their house and their soil. That's very I would say spiritual and very special approach which is not rational but also helps us in many ways but I think the best actually would be like the somewhere in between because I believe that you should be taking care of your security sometimes at least.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I assume that being a member of parliament, you feel a special duty for the people who voted for you, being an elected member of parliament. How do you deal with this additional burden of being an elected member and feeling a certain responsibility in front of the electorate? How do you deal with that?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: For me this is hard because I wish I could do much more. Much more simple things. But very often people would want things from us that we are not able to deliver, like the global questions, like bringing the life back the ruined lives, ruined houses, the destinies and that's very sad. But in the same time I do know that I can contribute a lot to the questions of global justice I'm working in human rights a lot and in the Council of Europe we recently had something a special event when the special tribunal of the crime of aggression was established which means that Russians who committed war crimes will pay the price in the same way as Nazi paid the price during the Nurnberg process. I think historically this is very important but I do understand that the result will not come over one night even one year so it's very long term and I hate that.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Are you personally trying not to think about how long it will take until soldiers of the Russian army who committed war crimes will face a trial. Are you trying not to think about how long it still will take? Or are you on the opposite more optimistic that it will happen during our lifetimes?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: I am thinking about the timelines very often because I would want to have a certainty for my country and for my life and for everyone. But there are no exact answers because no one would provide you a timeline there are so many different circumstances and obstacles. But I do know that it can last for instance, another question that we contributed to is the creation of registered damage and the compensation mechanism for Ukrainians who lost their houses or other things, and they suffered there is a huge damage to their life, so that Russia pays money back. We are working now to get the frozen assets and through the compensation mechanism to be able to use for Ukrainian recovery but also for justice. I think that every Ukrainian person would want to know when the criminal is going to pay the price and when will they get some compensation. No one would think that it might happen tomorrow, but they believe that this might happen sometime in the future. But statistics say, not statistic, but history tells us that these things can run for 20 years for 30 years. But still that is needed and that is the process.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: As a member of parliament and someone who studied political science has there been a point during this whole full-scale invasion that you have ever had the thought that international institutions, such as the United Nations, that they are not really working. Did that thought ever cross your mind that they are not efficient and reaching their goal as they should?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: So, international organizations such as the United Nations are really dysfunctional and we are thinking and talking about this all the time. So there is little potential that is left, but in general these organizations need reform. The Council of Europe has changed in recent years. The Council is progressing to be very very active to meet the demands of the time, as I said the special tribunal was created. And I think that is a great example.But of course we are talking all the time about this dysfunctional organizations because we just cannot live in illusions anymore. The same thing happens for instance to ICRC, and I respect ICRC a lot. But ICRC unfortunately in Ukraine during the full-scale invasion they don't manage to exercise their mandate that they have. Not because they don't want to but because Russia doesn't allow to. So, it's a problem we should be talking about, because we want ICRC to keep working. Not by complaining about them. But to give them more opportunities to do so. But let's be honest: Russia is not allowing them to fulfill their mandate and that's terrible because there are the Geneva conventions. For instance, I'm the author of the resolution on release and exchange of the prisoners of war. Ukrainian prisoners of war, detained in Russia, and that's a terrible situation. These people face executions, violations of the human rights, torture. And Russia only selectively decides what kind of information they shall share with ICRC and that's it. And they don't, Russia doesn't allow ICRC to visit these people in detention centers they don't allow ICRC to track where these people are. To only a small percentage, so that they can tick the box that they actually did it. But that's not that practices that should exist anymore. If there are rules, if we are parties of Geneva convention, we should respect that. But Russia doesn't respect that.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: When people that voted for you, when they're approaching you with complaints, for example that they have family members, who are now prisoners of war by Russia. When they approach you, and ask you: Could you do something for us? And you see how this organization is not able to help those people in a way that the organization should be helping: How you deal with that?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Well, I think we already reached the point when these people understand that that international organizations cannot do so much. So, the only hope is actually on our coordination centers Ukrainian coordination center for the exchange of the prisoners of war and negotiations that we may have with Russia and through third party mediators. And that's very important and that is something I advocate a lot. Every member state of the council of Europe, and not only, has a power to be a mediator on humanitarian questions. So, if we cannot end the war at least we can solve some of the humanitarian questions such as bringing back prisoners of war, civilians, children, wounded. There is a long list of humanitarian things that can be done, and we do manage to have some progress on some of them, for instance on the prisoners of war. But with the children, the situation is very bad.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: So sorry to hear, if I'm informed correctly there are about 20,000 Ukrainian children who are in Russia and were sent to Russia against their will against their relatives will, which is a terrible situation. You yourself are faced with a situation where your partner and the father of your child the former president of Georgia is in prison. Amnesty International for example, does not take him as a political prisoner. But he is treated like a political prisoner. You mentioned that he got poisoned. In this situation where the full-scale invasion is going on, and your partner is also a Ukrainian citizen, are you sometimes afraid that there is not enough attention for his case? Due to the millions of people with Ukrainian citizenship, with a Ukrainian password, who are going through such a hard and difficult time and who have relatives in Russian prisons. Are you sometimes afraid that there is not enough attention on his case?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Well, first of all let me correct you that we're not together anymore he's no longer my partner.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I'm sorry.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: But it doesn't change anything. There is very small attention on Georgia in general and on his case because he is a former president there is a lot of politicization of his case and human rights organizations such as Amnesty they you know they are very careful very honest honestly if to be with you. Because it's much easier to defend the journalist rather than the politician. If you are a politician and you got arrested, you know then people say you know it's a low enforcement the court will decide. But if the court is very dependent on a political will if the country is going Russian direction so what would you imagine would happen? So, that's a big tragedy what happens to him and to Georgia. It's a very big disease that is spread in Georgian society and it's very sad that international community is not paying enough attention to what happens in Georgia. And you know I think it only makes Putin happier because he really likes the idea that Georgia is under Russian influence and that's very sad. But unfortunately, I'm living with it already for a long time. Soon it will be four years since he was imprisoned and definitely that's not how we planned our life. And how I saw our relationship going but you know there is a price for freedom that you pay his freedom was taking away and everything was frozen and he's no longer able to do things he could do and that's very sad. But I still believe that after things happen in Georgia and when the war is over in Ukraine there could be some progress on his release but at this stage, I don't see it happening soon unfortunately.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: I'm very sorry to hear. A good friend of mine, a journalist, told me when I was visiting Kyiv in January this year, told me that in maybe 10 or 15 years in Ukraine the situation could be comparable to Georgia as Russia started the war against Georgia in 2008. And to this day is still occupying 20% of the country's territory. In 10 or 15 years the situation in Ukraine could be comparable to the situation in Georgia that the territory Russia occupied in Ukraine, that Russia would still hold this territory in 10 or 15 years. What will you say how to prevent this scenario that this could happen to Ukraine what has happened to Georgia?

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: You know, because I'm very much into the topic of mentality and differences between Georgia and Ukraine I do see the risk of what you just said but I think that Ukrainian mentality and Ukrainian people are very different. We are very good at self-organization. We mobilize very quickly. We are very stubborn people. We do love freedom and that's something that millions of people are giving away their lives for. Georgians are not always like that, and they do need a leader. We don't need a leader in Ukraine. We are very democratic in fighting each other but when we have to mobilize against the enemy, we are very good. In Georgia it's different and the Georgian situation is a bit different because Russian influence was coming there gradually and in very smart sophisticated way. People got hopeless and helpless in Georgia. They stopped believing in a change. Well Ukrainians always believe in change, and I think it's a big difference, but we are very exhausted now it's true and I wouldn't be very optimistic unless we have a chance to have some recovery for human beings inside us. Because to be able to fight you need to be able to breathe and if you don't breathe then you cannot fight.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: To end on a little bit more positive note. You once said in the interview that people living abroad, or more specific journalists should not ask you when the war is going to end. So, I will not ask you this question when the war is going to end. I rather ask you what gives you strength to carry on.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: I think the change in Europe gives me strength and I'm happy to see some more strengths coming from the European leadership. People give me strength inside Ukraine but that's quite obviously everyone who is so strong and fighting every day for freedom but also abroad, those people who show a face of humanity. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen, and I do appreciate that and it gives me some strength because I also need some support and some feeling of solidarity. When someone just asks me how am I doing and is asking if there is anything he or she can do to help, this is already a lot, and I really appreciate that if there is even more help coming.

Luzia Tschirky: Luzia Tschirky: Thank you so much Lisa Yasko for joining me today on the podcast and I really hope that people who listen to this podcast will continue their support for Ukraine. Thank you so much for being my guest.

Lisa Yasko: Lisa Yasko: Thank you.